[MyKong]

It is a happy moment for her, and she should be proud of her efforts.

But honestly I thought the article was not worth front page prominence. It pointed out the obvious and was more of a report. And while I cannot imagine that Monica intended to be patronising, I found the article to be patronising. Middle class people eating convenience food? How earth-shattering. A global corporation has a restaurant in India! Strike me down! This article is 10 yrs late if was intended to be revelatory. And if it intended to lend insight, it failed.

Also, the last time I checked, Mumbai, Delhi, and Bangalore are not representative of a deeply diverse and complicated country. I saw KFC and Pizza Hut while I was in India this past summer. They were in the shopping district--of what was the street--the name is on my tip--where the gift shops, the electronic stores, the clothing stores, etc.

[Rail Paul]

MyKong, on Apr 20 2005, 10:51 AM, said:

It is a happy moment for her, and she should be proud of her efforts....

And while I cannot imagine that Monica intended to be patronising, I found the article to be patronising.

I thought the article was very much from the heart.

it's always difficult to assess how much of the article's tone was Ms Bhide's, and how much was editorial tinkering, but the story seems straightforward. Money flows in as multiple bread (naan?)-winners advance in their employment. Family structures shift to accomodate these changes. People eat fast food when they need to, or want to.

The dramatic increase in the number of returning Indian middle class people with years of western living has undoubtedly had a huge impact on society. After ten years in Palo Alto, with a 5 bedroom house and busy work/family schedules, few returnees will move back in with Grandma and submit to her demands...

[Daisy]

Suzanne F, on Apr 20 2005, 12:04 PM, said:

  What is obvious to you may not be obvious to the majority of readers of the NY Times. While you may have been aware of all of that ten years ago, Americans (yes, even readers of the Times) by and large still have no idea that India is the country it has become, or how diverse it really is. People in America may still think -- if they think of India at all -- that everyone runs around in loincloths, looking like Ben Kingsley, tilling fields with a handmade plow pulled by a cow. And that all the middle-class people have left there to come here.

I daresay that if I were to read a story in a foreign paper (and "foreign" includes the rest of the U.S.) presenting as "news" the fact that one can buy batata, yautia, and chayote in New York City supermarkets, I might have a similar reaction. But just because I know better, doesn't mean that everyone else reading the article does.

I am sorry you found the article wanting. Monica is my friend, and told me how she had to rewrite it according to what the editor at the Times wanted. It is, in fact, quite a different article from what she originally pitched to them. You would do better to question the editor of the food section than to be snide to Monica.

And I would appreciate it if you would PM me explaining which bits you found patronizing and why, so that I can be on the lookout for that sort of language in future articles.

Suzanne, I think your tone is a bit harsh. You are understandably protective of your 'friend' but MyKong is entitled to her opinion regarding the story, which did not seem snide to me but rather a reasonable criticism. And a reaction very close to the one I had to the article

[bloviatrix]

Suzanne, what was the article as originally pitched (if you don't think Monica would mind you sharing)?

[Daisy]

Honestly, Suzanne, the only raised hackles I have observed in this thread have been yours. I thought MyKong's analysis was reasonable and thoughtful and I think you overreacted. Perhaps because you feel protective of the author?

[tanabutler]

I wish Monica could be a member here, if you know what I mean and I think you do.

[mongo_jones]

Rail Paul, on Apr 20 2005, 09:49 AM, said:

The dramatic increase in the number of returning Indian middle class people with years of western living has undoubtedly had a huge impact on society. After ten years in Palo Alto, with a 5 bedroom house and busy work/family schedules, few returnees will move back in with Grandma and submit to her demands...

first of all, this is a negligible amount of people. secondly, it isnt as though moving in with grandma and her demands etc. is the norm for those who do not move to the west. there are enough single and nuclear family yuppies in india, and it is they who are driving these changes, not people returning from the west.

monica is a friend of mine as well--and i've been critical of some aspects of her writing in the past (as in, i've given her direct feedback). what i like about this article is that it dispenses entirely with the usual "exotica" one sees in articles about indian food and culture. no charming stories about grandmothers and weddings etc.--just the facts. it does seem like it got a little over-edited but i think this article is a big step forward for monica and hopefully for coverage of indian culture in the u.s generally.

[MyKong]

Suzanne, I also found your posts harsh, particularly as I did not write my post with harshness or to insult Monica Bidhe. Please, I don't appreciate that as any writer worth her/his salt should be used to criticism. As far as I am aware, this is an open board. Frank Bruni is not a member of this board but that doesn't stop from people discussing his reviews.

If you read that in my post, you of course are entitled to your reading. Also, I was criticizing the article and not the author. I am also not privy, as you may be, to the editing and pitching processes at the NYT Dining Section, and particularly, this article.

Honestly, I think I may better off stating opinions elsewhere.

Daisy, thank you.

[Rail Paul]

mongo_jones, on Apr 20 2005, 01:26 PM, said:

Rail Paul, on Apr 20 2005, 09:49 AM, said:

The dramatic increase in the number of returning Indian middle class people with years of western living has undoubtedly had a huge impact on society. After ten years in Palo Alto, with a 5 bedroom house and busy work/family schedules, few returnees will move back in with Grandma and submit to her demands...

first of all, this is a negligible amount of people. secondly, it isnt as though moving in with grandma and her demands etc. is the norm for those who do not move to the west. there are enough single and nuclear family yuppies in india, and it is they who are driving these changes, not people returning from the west.

alright, strike "huge" in the "huge impact on society" but many IT publications say the return of expats has made a major impact on Indian society. They are adding experienced intellectual capital to that which already exists within India. The gated, residential communities springing up in the tech zones would seem to be a perfect example of western lifestyles grafted onto Indian society.

mongo, you'll note I didn't state the return of expats has driven the income demographic in India. It's disingenous of you to assert that I did, and then demolish the argument you created.

The rise of technical employment and call center development has given many Indian people opportunities far beyond what may have been available to their parents. Why wouldn't they consume fast food and adopt a lifestyle consistent with their employment and income?

[Cathy]

MyKong, please continue expressing your opinions here.

Suzanne, of course you feel protective of your friend. But an article published in the NY Times is fair game for discussion here, and critical comments shouldn't be read as a slap at Monica.

Carry on...

[mongo_jones]

Rail Paul, on Apr 20 2005, 11:55 AM, said:

mongo, you'll note I didn't state the return of expats has driven the income demographic in India.  It's disingenous of you to assert that I did, and then demolish the argument you created.

paul, but i didn't assert any such thing. your second sentence seemed to follow from your first and i responded accordingly. my point is that the majority of changes in indian society aren't being driven by the people returning from the u.s or elsewhere--regardless of what these numbers might be. tradition can be transformed from within, it doesn't require some sort of experience of the west. in fact, my own anecdotal experience with friends who've returned is that part of what's driven their desire to return is actually lifestyle improvement as measured by access to maids, cooks etc.

and indians have been consuming fast food etc. since long before the arrival of call-centers.

edit: "by" to "from"

This post has been edited by mongo_jones: 20 April 2005 - 06:11 PM